Author Topic: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?  (Read 16994 times)

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Offline Canoe

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Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« on: October 02, 2006, 08:34:59 PM »
With these hybrid gas/electric (they keep the good diesel/electric ones in Europe) we're seeing some pretty powerful electric motors. I understand that some of these electric motors drive the wheels without a transmission between them and the wheel, geared such that their 0 rpm to their top rpm corresponds to the vehicle 0 mph to its top speed.

What if we could convert an Eagle to have a direct drive electric motor at each wheel.

We could elliminate:
  • front diff and axles
  • drive shafts
  • transfer case
  • transmission
And the rear axle could be changed to something independent on each side?

The engine would stay to drive a generator to provide the wheel drive current. Except for very low speed, the gas engine would always be running when the vehicle is in motion.

And we'd add:
  • generator
  • an extra battery or two, to accumulate charge for peak loads (or to 'get-away' from a stop light while the engine turns back on)
  • four high current controllers driven by "gas pedal" input

The engine would be driven based on current requirements, so the generator is geared or belt connected to have the engine running at it's most efficient. There should also be a net drop in total vehicle weight?

And the gas engine could be replaced by a diesel? Say a lister?

Would it fly?

I bet I could go from my place to the store and back on two standard batteries, maybe one.

Any views on why it would or wouldn't?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2006, 08:42:43 PM by Canoe »

Offline Gil-SX4

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2006, 09:30:35 PM »
Isnt diesel more expensive then gasoline
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Offline mccastlej

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2006, 09:46:47 PM »
At the moment diesel is more expensive than gasoline, but not all the time.  There are many benifits to having a diesel motor.  The fuel consumption is much less, and for the norm the diesel engines will run much longer than a gas engine before they need a rebuild.  Usually at least twice as long depending on the manufacturer. 

Offline IowaEagle

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2006, 07:44:33 AM »
Ahhhhh -- the diesel electric locomotive reinvented.  I don't know if there would be any weight savings.  Diesel would probably be best but a small maybe 3 or 4 cylinder one would help with weight.  Modern locomotives have switched to Alternators vs. the older Generators.  I forget if the traction motors are AC or DC.  I guess one of the issues with hybrids is the potential for high voltage shock in an accident. 
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Offline eaglefreek

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2006, 07:30:27 PM »
Anything would work if you have enough $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
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Offline Canoe

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2006, 10:40:52 PM »
some points/assumptions

The diesel is more efficient than the gas engine, even though they weight a little more, although not that much with the modern diesels. They can also run on biodiesel without modification, and with heated fuel pickups and heated fuel lines and a boost in temperature just prior to the injector pump (heat source can be electric or engine coolant), they can run on vegetable oil (non-hydrgenated canola or soy being best).

(I keep forgetting that the hybrid electric motors use a wide and high range of voltages.)

Using a generator with rare earth magnets, one could have the engine drive the shaft with the magnets on it, to have a brushless generator - lots of juice for the weight and less upkeep.

A generator is heavier than an alternator (magnets vs. windings) but the d.c. doesn't have to be converted from a.c. to d.c..

Depending on the load requirements, one might be able to take a page from the off-the-grid hydro projects and modify large alternators from self exciting to rare earth magnet. On the other side a self exciting alternator can be modified to have a simple control circuit for the exciting load, such that one can vary the alternator load to match the gas motor to keep it operating at its most efficient.

I guess I need to find out more about these new electric motors, as in weight, voltage, current, torque, rpm, etc..

I am much intrigued.


Offline BenM

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2006, 09:32:14 PM »
Well, for instance, the Jetta goes from ~27 to ~50 when moving from a 1.8 turbo gasoline to a 1.9 turbo diesel. They're similar in performance, and the diesel is heavier.

With modern alternators/motors like they use in the new hybrids, it may work. I'd imagine either a motor for each axle, or one replacing the transmission on the t-case, but it depends on sizes available.

It would be great for trail crawling, at least. Probably cheaper then investing in a new transmission, gears, t-case and aux. transmission like some guys have.
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Offline Ayem Sea

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2006, 11:44:08 AM »
AHH he mentioned volkswagens! I thought this was an all american motors safe haven. Well, I'm asking for it, going on the hybrid subject...

Offline IowaEagle

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2006, 11:49:24 AM »
AMC did use VW engines for short time.  So I guess we can give him a pass.
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Offline rollguy

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2006, 12:43:37 PM »
Another thought is that a Diesel engine has more torque than a gas engine, so it can be geared to run slower, therefore using much less fuel. I have seen small Diesel generators that put out a lot of power, and are also very quiet. I have been doing a lot of research on Diesel engines, Biodiesel, and SVO or WVO as fuel. I am convinced that that is the only way to go. I am turning into a "Diesel Guy" in a hurry! I am looking to sell all of my gas vehicles, and go Diesel powered. Don't worry about me leaving the Eagle Nest, as I have the '80 Turbo Diesel Eagle!
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Offline IowaEagle

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2006, 01:23:41 PM »
No worry hear.  I wonder if AMC was thinking about Diesels.  They probably saw what happened to GM and shied away.  Perhaps your car was one they were going to watch and see if they would make more???  A Diesel electric, to me, makes more sense since they are ideal for that application.  You don't see many (any more) gas-electric locomotives.  Gas-electric railroad equipment was primarily used in single unit commuter applications and in some very early freight locomotives -- they just did not have the reliability or longevity of the diesel units.
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Offline Ayem Sea

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2006, 08:26:18 PM »
AMC did use VW engines for short time.  So I guess we can give him a pass.

I had a feeling someone'd say that; it could happen on a mopar forum too, if the subject were plymouth horizons and dodge omnis....

Offline 83Eagle!

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2006, 10:02:30 PM »
I think that is the way that Daimler Chrysler could bring back the Eagle...  Market it as a hybrid sport utility vehicle.  They don't really have such a thing do they?  I know they are looking into flex fuel vehicles and turbo diesels.  But they do not have a directly hybrid vehicle on the market do they?  Other than the Dodge Sprinter??
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Offline lmhsx/4

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2010, 08:47:44 PM »

  As I own 23 diesel fuel injectors. would like to find a diesel to fit the SX/4. Hard to find a good fit. What about the diesel engine in Isuzu NPR & Nissan delivery trucks?

   I have noticed when setting the cruise control on the "TDI" when driving hills on highway will actually pull away from gas powered. As for millage, a few weeks ago drove from east Iowa to Ann Arbor, MI and back. 21 gallons of fuel. About 47 MPG. Have done better. Could not hold a constant speed, to much stop & go.


 
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Offline Bird-o-Prey

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2010, 11:32:21 AM »
Try this link.  Have a look.  Just drop an eagle body on it.  Probably cheaper than all the mods required to make a stock Eagle a hybrid.

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/02/trexa-electric-car-platform-will-cost-upwards-of-us15999/

Cheers
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Offline Mechanic

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2010, 11:55:10 AM »
Just my 2cents. wanting to go into the Field(building alternative fuel vehicles, electric, and hybrid vehicles) the weight would actually be Increased by the combined weight of the electric motors, batteries, and generator.

Now, having not read the full thread yet I'm not quite sure what you have come up with but I have been thinking along the same lines only not quite as extravagant, just removing the tranny t-case, engine(replaced with a smaller 4 Cly generator) and changing out the Axel ratios for whatever is best and just use the old drivetrain.
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Offline Whuntmore

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2010, 12:21:29 PM »
I've actually considered this, and done a little research on the idea.

A small gas generator should work (and having compatible voltages).   This is the thing that puts me off.  There is NO reason that you cannot substitute some kind of small gas generator instead of all those batteries.

Probably a 3500-5000 watt generator (Even honda sells them), and the same for the electric motor(s).   Of course you'll need a converter/step up, or step down transformer, and some other electrical workings.  but it should weigh less then all those freaking batteries.

The other thing that puts me off, is the fact 90% of the fuel burnt is wasted in heat.  10% is propulsion.  Now, a few years ago, I saw an article in Discover mag, and someone had invented a diode (transister, whatever) that when heated, produces electricity (a voltage, whatever).  Now, why can't someone mass produce these suckers, and have a backup electric motor, and cover any components that produce heat (the generator) with these diodes?

Regardless, the stuff is out there to have a car that will go hundreds of miles to the gallon (considering that, for example, those honda generators will run for like 10-11.5 hours on a tiny tank of gas.

I remember watching on tv, back during the first oil crisis (late 70's) that these university students had taken something like a british MG, (or something like that), and made it run 100 mpg.  Now where is that?

It's the car companies that are in bed with the oil companies that won't allow it...  or offer it.

If any of you ever do this, best thing to do is to keep quiet about it.  Someone will try to shut you down.  back in the 80's, there was a guy who had an old 79 volvo, and made his own moonshine, and ran the car on it.  The govt gave him such a hard time (all the redtape and such) that they tied him down in legal costs, permits, and bylaw infractions, that he was forced to give up.  (Harrowsmith article - The New Moonshiners)

http://evhelp.com/index.htm
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 12:24:05 PM by Whuntmore »
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Offline 83Eagle!

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2010, 03:16:40 PM »
Try this link.  Have a look.  Just drop an eagle body on it.  Probably cheaper than all the mods required to make a stock Eagle a hybrid.

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/02/trexa-electric-car-platform-will-cost-upwards-of-us15999/

Cheers

That would be an interesting platform. Can anyone photoshop that with an Eagle body on it?
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I no longer have an AMC Eagle, but I am still a fan.

After our fiasco with the Toyota Corolla I got for my wife I believe I am done with Japanese vehicles.

Dude you are preaching to a choir member that is close to becoming an AMC Minister if you know what I mean.


Offline Bird-o-Prey

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2010, 11:01:08 PM »
Well, as far as the small gas powered motor running the generator...that is what the Chevy Volt is about.  The batteries are there for short commutes, like a quick trip to the grocery store or somesuch.  They only have a 40 to 50 km range.  Beyond that, the single cylinder gas generator kicks in to supply power to the electrics as well as recharge the batteries.  When on the highway, the batteries are there for a boost of power to pass another car or go up a steep hill.  With the generator running, the range of the Volt is extended to +/- 1000km.  I believe that the gas tank is very small, maybe something like 35 litres (ish).  I think it also has regenerative braking to help charge the batteries.  Here is a link I just found, if anyone is interested. 

http://gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-faqs/

However, I don't think that the Eagle is really well suited for this kind of conversion.  I think you would be better off trying to convert the gas engine to run on 100% Ethanol or Methane or some other source of cleaner fuel.  Even trying to convert it to run on Hydrogen, which is abundant and super clean and relatively easy to refine, would be less costly than trying to re-invent the wheel.

A great quote "Internal combustion baby...accept no substitutes!"

Just my 2 cents.
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Offline rollguy

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2010, 11:59:45 PM »
I often wondered why they (some car manufacturer) don't make a Diesel/electric hybrid?   The Prius gets (on average) 41 MPG.  The VW TDI (Jetta) gets an average 45 MPG.   If that little Diesel engine (would not even need to be a turbo) was designed to work with an electric motor like the prius, it would probably get around 75 MPG!    I have also wondered if some aftermarket company makes a retrofit electric drive setup for most any vehicle.  A 4X4 electric Eagle would be awesome!  Better yet, a Diesel/electric hybrid Eagle!!!
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Offline 83Eagle!

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2010, 12:12:10 AM »
I often wondered why they (some car manufacturer) don't make a Diesel/electric hybrid?   The Prius gets (on average) 41 MPG.  The VW TDI (Jetta) gets an average 45 MPG.   If that little Diesel engine (would not even need to be a turbo) was designed to work with an electric motor like the prius, it would probably get around 75 MPG!    I have also wondered if some aftermarket company makes a retrofit electric drive setup for most any vehicle.  A 4X4 electric Eagle would be awesome!  Better yet, a Diesel/electric hybrid Eagle!!!

I have been wondering the same thing since I saw the first reports of the mileage on the TDI Jettas.
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1996 Ford Ranger
2010 Dodge Grand Caravan
2007 Saturn Ion
I no longer have an AMC Eagle, but I am still a fan.

After our fiasco with the Toyota Corolla I got for my wife I believe I am done with Japanese vehicles.

Dude you are preaching to a choir member that is close to becoming an AMC Minister if you know what I mean.


Offline Jurjen

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2010, 12:45:47 PM »
I'm thinking about rear wheel drive cars with diesel engines.
The BMW 525 tdi/530d I-6 springs to mind, that really would suit the Eagle.
In Europe we could buy the Chrysler 300C whith a Mercedes diesel that really suits the car very well.
It is a 218 HP 3.0 V6 with 500Nm of torque, also a very good combination.
About the electrics, I do know that they both have an alternator.....
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Offline Canoe

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2010, 03:05:09 PM »
A few years back, BMW had a diesel electric passenger van/SUV type. Engine was east-west tucked up where our spare wheel and gas tanks are. Don't know if it went to market.

Diesel electric allows you to remove the heavy Eagle engine & drive train. Only the suspension and rear axle remains. Drive the each front wheel with their own electric motor. Rear: electric motor on the Diff or may need the rear drive shaft and drive it from the chassis.

Diesel electric means you don't need tons of heavy batteries: batteries are not for general use, but for that boost use detailed above; ultra capacitor may do a better job (weight and current acceptance/delivery) but cost & availability are issues.

The "gas" pedal isn't controlling the engine RPM. It runs constant, with the pedal taking what the electric engines need to drive the car and the excess electricity dumped into a reserve of batteries and/or ultra capacitors. For up-hill runs, the engine RPM can go up a bit from optimum efficiency, and power now taken from the reserve.

Diesel engine can be run on biodiesel (which, although requires care & skill, can be DIY). Can also be run directly on SVO (straight vegetable oil), although this requires heated fuel lines & fuel pickup in the tank. SVO actually runs better on preheated SVO, like that obtained from restaurant fryers and then filtered (often while heated slightly) to remove food debris and that of the SVO that was easily polymerized by the fryer temperatures. Virgin SVO has the easily polymerized oil component that may polymerize within your heated lines, so virgin SVO is often preheated and filtered for reliability, like the free fryer SVO, but the virgin SVO has to be heated quite high (350F to 400F - and NOT OVER THAT) so there's an additional expense for virgin. Corn oil does not work well. Soy works better. Canola seems to work best. You don't want free used fryer shortening, but the liquid at room temperature oil.

Also, both gas and diesel engines can be converted to recycle the exhaust gas heat through a nickel-steel-solid-core heat exchanger, preheating a fuel|water-vapor mixture of hydrocarbon (alcohol is popular) & water that is input to heat exchanger and then the engine intake. Engine runs on its conventional fuel system until it heats up, then the conventional fuel delivery system runs at idle-equivalent fuel input, with the Pantone carb fuel/air mixture input through the engine intake. Reports from people who have done this report that the final exhaust gas temperature is greatly reduced, supporting that there is no magic happening, just making the engine more efficient. Last I looked, no one had figured out why it worked; theory was that the free exhaust heat was breaking down the hydrocarbon fuel into smaller hydrocarbons that when combusted within the engine, gave up more energy than the original more complex hydro carbon, thereby recycling part of the waste engine heat back into combustion heat within the engine. Search for Pantone engine. Reportedly works best with constant RPM engines, like generators and tractors, although one (I think) idiot in France posted images of his converted helicopter, careful to leave out the registration numbers. Doesn't work for injection engines that pre-fire within the intake cycle to warm the cylinder, as this ignites the Pantone sourced fuel/air mixture too far before TDC and you lose power.

The 258 would be a good candidate. Just enough room to fit the heat exchanger between the exhaust manifold and the exhaust pipes. Pantone carb should be able to feed into the intake where the intake flow heater is - not that I've thought about doing this...  ;-)


Offline rollguy

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2010, 03:31:08 PM »

Also, both gas and diesel engines can be converted to recycle the exhaust gas heat through a nickel-steel-solid-core heat exchanger, preheating a fuel|water-vapor mixture of hydrocarbon (alcohol is popular) & water that is input to heat exchanger and then the engine intake. Engine runs on its conventional fuel system until it heats up, then the conventional fuel delivery system runs at idle-equivalent fuel input, with the Pantone carb fuel/air mixture input through the engine intake. Reports from people who have done this report that the final exhaust gas temperature is greatly reduced, supporting that there is no magic happening, just making the engine more efficient. Last I looked, no one had figured out why it worked; theory was that the free exhaust heat was breaking down the hydrocarbon fuel into smaller hydrocarbons that when combusted within the engine, gave up more energy than the original more complex hydro carbon, thereby recycling part of the waste engine heat back into combustion heat within the engine. Search for Pantone engine. Reportedly works best with constant RPM engines, like generators and tractors, although one (I think) idiot in France posted images of his converted helicopter, careful to leave out the registration numbers. Doesn't work for injection engines that pre-fire within the intake cycle to warm the cylinder, as this ignites the Pantone sourced fuel/air mixture too far before TDC and you lose power.

The 258 would be a good candidate. Just enough room to fit the heat exchanger between the exhaust manifold and the exhaust pipes. Pantone carb should be able to feed into the intake where the intake flow heater is - not that I've thought about doing this...  ;-)



Cool info!  EGG to you!
1980 Eagle Turbodiesel Wagon (only 2 known to exist as of 2008)- 7-7-2011 Flight to it's new nest @ Rambler Ranch
1983 Eagle Wagon  Tan over Copper
1982 Eagle SX4 "ALTREGL"  (avatar photo)
1982 Eagle 4 Door Sedan  Copper over Satin Black
1985 Eagle Sport Wagon October 2007 ROTM (SOLD)
4 Biofuel powered Benzs ('98 E300, '82 300 CD, '82 300 TD (wagon), '80 240 D)
1983 GMC Van (6.2 Diesel)
1985 Mitsubishi pickup (2.3 Turbodiesel)


Offline Jurjen

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2010, 12:33:08 PM »
We could make a nice hybrid from the Eagle.
Put the BMW inline-6 diesel in, to drive the rear wheels, this will make it go like a stabbed rat already.
Take the transfer case off and put a 40kW motor on the front drive shaft and some nice LiOn batteries in the secret compartment in the back.
The extra 40kW on the front wheels will make it go like a drag racer.
Normally the car will do regenerative braking on the front wheels.
Only extreme braking will operate the disc brakes.
Should be able to 50 MPG?
"sparrows fly in flocks, eagles fly alone"

Eagle Wagon Limited 1983, Peugeot 406 coupe 2001,Triumph Bonneville 1969,Triumph Speed Triple 1996, Yamaha TX750 1973

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Offline MortenB

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2010, 02:44:19 PM »
I have also thought much about a conversion to electric drive.   I have an electric drivetrain in a Blazer that I plan to put into something else when I free up some time.   One problem with the Eagles is that they are quite heavy, though not as heavy as the Blazer, and that they have lack of space for batteries.   Lithium batteries is the only way to go, as they take much less space and weigh much less than lead batteries.   Some batteries would go above the motor, and some under the trunk area (the floor back there would have to be cut out and a battery box built in the space of that and of the gas tank.   

There are a couple of conversions of Jeeps to be found online, but both of the ones I've seen were done with lead batteries resulting in poor performance and poor range.

I have lithium batteries in my '96 VW Golf EV, and there is a world of difference between the lithium and the original sealed lead batteries.

The batteries in the Blazer are on their last year or two, perhaps after they are no good I will go ahead with a conversion.   Either an Eagle or an older Mustang, or my '64 Rambler.   
1980 Eagle wagon (first 29 years spent in Arizona)
1983 Eagle SX/4, 6cyl 5 speed
1970 Camaro (undergoing restoration)
1966 Ford Country Sedan wagon (30000 miles original)
1964 Lincoln Continental Convertible
1992 Chevrolet Blazer EV conversion; 100% ELECTRIC car, daily driver
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Offline MaskNMI

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2010, 03:46:22 PM »
lol you guys are crazy....but I like the innovative thinking, it is needed around here, best of luck w/ hybrid/electric/deisel Eagle!

my Eagle is due for an engine in a year or two, I am personally thinking of a spark engine built w/ liquid propane injection

I agree on Li-ion batteries, they are very cool!! Tesla is using them and building the battery charger into the car so you can plug into ANY 120VAC source....but, as opposed to a hybrid, here is just an idea: perhaps  dual electric powertrains, one FWD, one RWD?...even perhaps w/ ability to shut off/disconnect one or the other for extra econonmy...it would be much less complex than 4 motors (remember your 4 wheels don't turn the same speed all the time), less redundant than hybrid (I mean you wouldn't need space for a gas tank AND batteries) and would solve the problem of Eagle's weight  compared to what most current electric powertrains are designed to push

I do like the diesel electric hybrid idea! I like it a lot better than I like what I see from current gas/electric hybrids, maybe you could build a hybrid that could actually tow something and still be economical! that would actually make carrying around two different powertrains worthwhile

  If that little Diesel engine (would not even need to be a turbo) was designed to work with an electric motor like the prius, it would probably get around 75 MPG!   

just FYI, non-turbo diesels are not terribly efficient, not to mention rare these days....there's no reason not to run a turbo on a diesel except cost...the most efficient diesels are 2-stroke and this design practically mandates a turbo charger

Morten: Q, is this Blazer you speak of pure electric!?!? if so how does it perform? is it 4wd?


Offline MortenB

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2010, 03:53:57 PM »
The Blazer is indeed all electric.  It is a '92 S10 Blazer RWD.   It does fairly well, but the weight of 20 6v lead acid batteries keeps the acceleration down.    It was converted new for Robin Williams' wife.  Interesting story:   http://becketts.ws/eaa/eaasv-forms/pvbecketthp78.pdf
1980 Eagle wagon (first 29 years spent in Arizona)
1983 Eagle SX/4, 6cyl 5 speed
1970 Camaro (undergoing restoration)
1966 Ford Country Sedan wagon (30000 miles original)
1964 Lincoln Continental Convertible
1992 Chevrolet Blazer EV conversion; 100% ELECTRIC car, daily driver
1996 VW Golf Citistromer; 100% ELECTRIC car, daily driver

Offline Canoe

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2010, 03:28:53 PM »
... it would be much less complex than 4 motors (remember your 4 wheels don't turn the same speed all the time) ...

Not an issue. Benefit of four (or three) motors. The motors apply torque: through the wheel, resistance and travel, this will result in their speed. Potential enhancement: if the motors provide RPM feedback, you can detect when a wheel has lost traction (beyond a given delta-RPM) and automatically dial back the voltage|current applied to that motor - electronic pseudo-locking diff equivalency.

Easy with two motors in the front, and you lose the front axle & diff weight.
Harder to redo rear suspension to lose the axle to get to drive with two rear motors. Or drive rear with one on or to the rear diff.

... less redundant than hybrid (I mean you wouldn't need space for a gas tank AND batteries) ...
Small battery requirement. Not like an only electric vehicle.


Offline MaskNMI

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2010, 02:56:03 AM »
canoe: hmm, you've got me hooked, I can't wait to see it!

now, if you gave it 4-wheel steering along with 4 independent motors...that could get WAY COOL!! ;D



Offline Canoe

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2010, 10:30:30 PM »
canoe: hmm, you've got me hooked, I can't wait to see it!

now, if you gave it 4-wheel steering along with 4 independent motors...that could get WAY COOL!! ;D

See it?
Well, I do buy lottery tickets...

rear wheel steering?
I can't even figure out how to make it independent rear suspension to lose the rear diff and axle!

But the aftermarket part for the Audi Allroad air suspension looks interesting. Lose the front spring. Lose all but the primary rear leaf. More weight gone, and adjustable suspension.

Offline Canoe

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2010, 10:00:48 AM »
wish I had their money to work with...

http://www.gizmag.com/oshkosh-diesel-electric-hybrid-baja-1000-desert-race/16963/

diesel engine powers an electric generator, which provides direct power to the wheels, eliminating the torque converter, automatic transmission, transfer case and drive shafts. The system has no batteries, using ultracapacitors for energy storage.

Offline Canoe

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2010, 02:24:04 PM »
... look for diesel/hydraulic hybrids. They are being tested in UPS trucks right now and the results are astounding.

Works well for years in Holder tractors. The diesel-to-pump output pressure can even be electronically regulated and hence pulsed to the drive motors instead of letting them spin freely due to torque. Think of it as ABS-like drive. (not for our use, but additional hydraulic loads can be added (power-take-off) and electronic control priority can be assigned to either the drive wheels or the PTO; with priority assigned to PTO, as the PTO load varies the PTO RPM is maintained - constant velocity PTO!)
Down side is the weight of the hydraulic motors at the wheels - they have to be very robust, as does the pump and the controllers. Fine for a tractor, and apparently a delivery truck, but the pump, hydraulic controllers and motors are a lot of weight compared to a generator and electric motors.

The diesel-hydraulic has to change it's RPM to provide speed control. Electric allows the diesel to run at an optimum RPM/load (optimize efficiency and emissions) and the excess is stored until needed, something hydraulic can't do. I note that Oshkosh is going the route of ultra capacitors, not batteries.

Offline IowaEagle

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2011, 06:46:58 PM »
Interesting concept.  If I was doing this I would probably replace the power plant as our auto transmissions need that throttle rod -- or would one just keep it in Drive?
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Offline eaglefreek

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2011, 12:55:21 PM »


               HI Iowaeagle can you tell me why no body wants to talk to me about the electrick Eagle .....

                    IT would be nice to toss some ideas around a little ..It would get about 120 miles per gallon...

                     I could live with that .With a smile    ...............Don
Probably because of cost, range and knowledge to pull it off. If I were to do an electric vehicle it  would be something small and light like my Festiva buy have no desire.
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Rocky mountain high"  John Denver
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Offline eaglefreek

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2011, 03:34:14 PM »
I have nothing against electric powered vehicles actually fond of them. I think they would be great in a metropolitan or dense suburb area but for me it wouldn't be beneficial. I have to drive 12 miles to get into town where there are a few stores. To go to the big town it is 25+ miles. I've put 8,000 miles on my Festiva in the  3 months that I have owned it.
"I know he'd be a poorer man if he never saw an eagle fly,
Rocky mountain high"  John Denver
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Offline IowaEagle

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2011, 01:36:42 PM »


               HI Iowaeagle can you tell me why no body wants to talk to me about the electrick Eagle .....

                    IT would be nice to toss some ideas around a little ..It would get about 120 miles per gallon...

                     I could live with that .With a smile    ...............Don

Sorry for the late response.  I was out of the state for a few days.  I have no idea why, either.  I find it an interesting concept.
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Not a Jeep.  Not a Car.  Its an AMC Eagle!

1982 Eagle SX/4 Sport;
1980 Concord DL;
1970 Ambassador 2 Dr HT, SST
1995 Jeep Cherokee Sport;
2002 Hyundai Santa Fe;
2008 Jeep Patriot Sport - Freedom Drive II

Offline eaglefreek

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2011, 05:15:05 PM »
            HI    I could not have a E car with a 50 mile range .The one I want to build has a gas one Cly motor that
                     runs a generator that supplies electric to the drive motor .I have tested the gen setup with a 5 gal
                     tank running the gen until it ran out of gas ..it ran for 13 hours non stop ....my dad lives in ten on
                     the ten river  and it is 11 hours from here I could drive to his house and 2 hours run time left....

                      That is around 125 miles per gal.....the range there is on range as long as you have gas you can
                       keep going now this is what I want to build................Don

                        I forgot there is only 2 battares
Did you test it with the same load it will see with the electric motor moving the Eagle? I would assume the generator would use a lot more fuel with a heavy load on it. Would this generator supply enough juice to keep the batteries charged and motor turning at highway speeds. Check out Neil Young's Lincvolt. Quite an interesting vehicle. 500hp electric motor with a micro turbine powered generator. http://www.lincvolt.com/
"I know he'd be a poorer man if he never saw an eagle fly,
Rocky mountain high"  John Denver
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Offline twoslowinwyo

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2011, 05:08:20 PM »
check out any forklift repair outfits in your area, i've worked on elec. forklifts for years and they weigh around 10,000 lbs. for a small one. and those motors zip them around just fine. raymond and crown are the best ones out there, you should be able to pick up a reman mtr. for a couple grand. sounds like a fun project. keep us updated. LAZ
LAZ

Offline twoslowinwyo

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2011, 12:15:12 PM »
LAZ

Offline twoslowinwyo

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2011, 12:30:48 PM »
sorry, i ment to say one heck of a diesel-eletric snow rig.

teneagle, i used to work on raymond and crown. raymond were the best.
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Offline twoslowinwyo

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2011, 10:25:33 PM »
go to www.raymondcorp.com they used to have d.c. systems but they changed to a.c. a few years ago. they are also pioneering fuel cell technology in their lifts. the ac sys. used a dc batt. with an inverter to run the ac motors, they also had re-gen. braking. contrary to popular belief and much sales hype regenerative braking DOES NOT charge the battery. the battery is used as a dump so the excess voltage has a place to go. before that they used very large rectifiers to hold the excess. see if there is a Raymond dealer or service center near you, they usually have rebuilt motors that are much cheaper than new (1500usd) and they will probably be able to help you with controllers and assd. hardware. hope this helps a bit, LAZ
LAZ

Offline twoslowinwyo

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2011, 09:08:01 AM »
found this link on another forum, it might give you an idea what others are working on. LAZ

http://gas2.org/2009/06/15/huge-electric-semi-would-transform-trucking/
LAZ

Offline kalve

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2012, 10:05:16 PM »
sounds like a good idea if somebody could get it to work
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Offline Jurjen

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2012, 06:31:47 AM »
This is what we are looking for, even the color is very Eaglish.

http://www.carpages.co.uk/peugeot/peugeot-508-rxh-29-08-11.asp

It has a 160HP diesel engine for the front wheels and 40Hp electric motors on the rear, nice!
"sparrows fly in flocks, eagles fly alone"

Eagle Wagon Limited 1983, Peugeot 406 coupe 2001,Triumph Bonneville 1969,Triumph Speed Triple 1996, Yamaha TX750 1973

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXaWXJ8EQD8

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Offline Canoe

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Re: Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2012, 12:31:53 PM »
And there's a new diesel engine coming out.
Honda's 1.6 litre i-DTEC turbo diesel giving
  • 120 PS (118 bhp) @ 4,000 rpm and
  • 300 Nm (221 ft-lb) of torque @ 2,000 rpm.

Fuel injection from Bosch at 1800bar.
Fuel economy on their new car should go from 67 mpg to 78 mpg.

Lose the Eagle 4.2l, transmission & transfer-case, add an electric at each front wheel and the rear drive shaft, drive them from this diesel, should still be a weight savings too. New motor control circuits detect rpm while providing driving current, so coordinating torque between the three electric motors should be fairly easy.

 

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