Author Topic: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...  (Read 8176 times)

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Offline greymarooneightytwo

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Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« on: February 27, 2013, 01:17:04 PM »
There are two variants listed for our cars at most part stores... one for ac and one for non-ac, due to the belt routing varying between them, reversing the rotation direction of the impeller.

They list them, at least at my parts store, as "serpentine" and "non-serpentine" for the ac and non-ac vehicles, respectively... I may have bought the wrong one and spent the last week thinking I had problems elsewhere, but you won't catch me admitting it!
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 05:35:04 PM by greymarooneightytwo »

Offline mudkicker715

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2013, 01:23:24 PM »
The reverse rotation pumps housing used to at one time have "rev" cast into it. not sure that still holds true.

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Offline Eagleearl

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2013, 02:24:59 PM »
The serpentine pumps are for cars with the serpentine belt setup, which were made for California cars I believe. The non-serpentine pumps are for cars with the V-belt setup. Either one can be AC or non-AC.

Offline greymarooneightytwo

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2013, 05:33:07 PM »
Ah, so is the variance is involved in presence or absence of an air pump then...?

I assumed it was the AC cars that used serpentine belts, but I had heard that due to California smog regulations there were pulse air systems in some of these vehicles..

Mine was a non-AC but had three separate belts, one for the air pump..

I wonder if it's just specific years that are affected?

What is the method to the madness?

Offline Eagleearl

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2013, 09:13:49 AM »
Early Eagles had air pumps, then they switched to the pulse air system. These are to feed air to the catalytic converter to burn unburned hydrocarbons. These were to meet Federal mandates. I don't know why the serpentine belts for California, maybe for efficiency.

Offline BenM

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2013, 12:46:02 PM »
I don't know that there was any fast rule beyond all California cars got serpentine belts. Various other cars got them as well, but the V-belt was more common.
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Offline greymarooneightytwo

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2013, 01:07:16 PM »
Replaced the water pump with the new "standard rotation" one! It's no longer overheating, but I think I fried the temp sensor, it doesn't go above the "cold" line on the gauge.... but then, I also replaced the thermostat with a 180 degree one, that's what they had listed... but when I pulled the old one it was a 195. PO switched it out or is it another random variance? Should I be running a 195 in there?


Offline BenM

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2013, 03:10:33 PM »
Replaced the water pump with the new "standard rotation" one! It's no longer overheating, but I think I fried the temp sensor, it doesn't go above the "cold" line on the gauge.... but then, I also replaced the thermostat with a 180 degree one, that's what they had listed... but when I pulled the old one it was a 195. PO switched it out or is it another random variance? Should I be running a 195 in there?

That's a correct reading for a 180 thermostat. It won't go into the green without a 195 in there. AMC always ran a 195 in the 258. People get from just into the green to the middle of the green with a 195.
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1987 AMC Eagle Sedan -- 1976 Pacer Coupe -- 1968 Pontiac Tempest Custom S -- 1940 Mercury (& a 2002 Jetta Turbodiesel, 5 spd., the Wife's Daily Driver)

Offline TLC87Eagle

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2013, 03:36:53 PM »
I had a problem with the parts store getting one that didn't have casted fitting for the smaller hose, it just had a threaded 5/8" hole in it, and I couldn't find a fitting to screw into it. So I put my old water pump I had before my engine rebuild that was still serviceable back on. The brand new one I put on during my engine rebuild crapped out after 13k miles  ???.
And my old one that even has an AMC logo on it is still working fine after 65k miles of combined service between two engines.
I'll probably just get a high flow unit from Summit Racing when the one I'm running starts weeping.
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Offline greymarooneightytwo

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2013, 04:36:51 PM »
Yeah, temp gauge used to sit right in the green... I liked it better that way, and I think my heater worked better too so I'm probably going to swap it back.

Thanks a lot everybody.

Offline eaglebeek

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2013, 10:26:52 PM »
Eagles with 258s need a 195 thermostat. If it overheats with a 195 there's something else going on. :eagle:
1984 Eagle Wagon, 258, auto, 2.73 gears, daily driver
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Offline carnuck

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2013, 01:50:22 AM »
My '84 had no AC but it was serpentine. My '81 is AC but it's Vee belt (as are all York AC systems)
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Offline BenM

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2013, 04:09:15 PM »
I had a problem with the parts store getting one that didn't have casted fitting for the smaller hose, it just had a threaded 5/8" hole in it, and I couldn't find a fitting to screw into it. So I put my old water pump I had before my engine rebuild that was still serviceable back on. The brand new one I put on during my engine rebuild crapped out after 13k miles  ???.
And my old one that even has an AMC logo on it is still working fine after 65k miles of combined service between two engines.
I'll probably just get a high flow unit from Summit Racing when the one I'm running starts weeping.

I did that once as well. FlowKooler and Hesco make high-flow units.
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1987 AMC Eagle Sedan -- 1976 Pacer Coupe -- 1968 Pontiac Tempest Custom S -- 1940 Mercury (& a 2002 Jetta Turbodiesel, 5 spd., the Wife's Daily Driver)

Offline eaglefreek

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2013, 06:45:25 PM »
  The brand new one I put on during my engine rebuild crapped out after 13k miles  ???.
   
I had that happen also. I put the engine from my original 81 Eagle into my 87 Eagle and even though the water pump looked fine I figured it would be wise to swap out the almost 30 year old water pump. Well, with less than 5,000 miles, the new water pump went out in KY on my move from CO to TN. Fortunately, I had a friend that lived about 30 miles from where it happened and was able to limp to his place and install another. That was has worked fine for 20+K miles.
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Offline TLC87Eagle

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2013, 07:01:18 PM »
I had that happen also. I put the engine from my original 81 Eagle into my 87 Eagle and even though the water pump looked fine I figured it would be wise to swap out the almost 30 year old water pump. Well, with less than 5,000 miles, the new water pump went out in KY on my move from CO to TN. Fortunately, I had a friend that lived about 30 miles from where it happened and was able to limp to his place and install another. That was has worked fine for 20+K miles.

Yeah, the Reman water pumps are really touch and go now, most likely because most are remaned in China. Mine first started making noice when the engine was cold. Sounded like a piece of metal in a garbage disposal under the hood, that would only last less than 30 seconds per drive. So it was really hard for me to sort out what it was. And one day while checking the oil, I smelled antifreeze and noticed where some had seeped out on the front of the engine and noticed the overflow bottle was low. I traced it back to the water pump, and still couldn't believe it, since it was a new pump, but sure enough it was. After dealing with two parts stores in one day and needing to drive the car the next day, I just put the old one back on and it has been holding up since.

I may just order one of those high flow units for Summit, and put it up on the shelf so I won't have to deal with part stores next time I have water pump issues.

Still not sure why some of those pumps have the threaded hole on them, unless they were used on something else too, cause I've never seen an Eagle with that style water pump.
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Offline carnuck

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2013, 01:37:03 AM »
You can get that pipe for a 4.0L and it will work. Replacement pumps are cheaper to make without that piece on it. The pump is the same as Grand Cherokee and Wrangler 4.0L pumps except the pulley offset.
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Offline j2sax

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2013, 10:04:54 AM »
Serpentine or non-serpentine has nothing to do with Fed or CA certs or A/C- Non A/C.  It was just the progression from the old, V Belt set up to the modern Serpentine, though it was not pulled off very well with the 258's. 

Serpentine belts have much larger contact area with their driven components and are less prone to heat/stretch issues.  Additionally, they are suPPOSed to be easier to change (and on most vehicles are!) since one broad belt is used to drive all components (at least that's the way it is on MOST vehicles) with one adjustment point or tensioner.  Unfortunately on the 258 it really wasn't planned as well as it could have been and is a marginal system a bit more difficult to deal with than it should be, though it is not untenable. 

One thing with the Serp system is it is much more difficult to "lose the emissions" components to those who are so inclined.  Many have made the mistake of reverting to the old Vbelt system, without planning to change the water pump with it!

I believe the change to V Belts occurred after the Chrysler Purchase in 86, however, I had an 88 with V Belts and I have had an 86 with Serpentine. 

Have a great week!


Offline TLC87Eagle

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2013, 10:48:34 AM »
Thanks for clearing that up guys. I was just wondering about that.
NAPA or (Never Any Parts Available)  ;D said the threaded kind was all they could get.
At least in my area anyways, but the majority of parts workers in my area are not that knowledgeable, especially about AMCs, so who knows. ;D
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Offline greymarooneightytwo

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2013, 01:18:32 PM »
I can say for certain either, but '82 is v belt, original configuration, and the only other one I've ever seen under the hood of in person was an 84 with the v belts...

Now that you mention it though, "Chrysler" seems like a great scapegoat, I like that!


Offline BenM

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2013, 03:37:42 PM »
Just to fuel this a little more, I can't find any mention in my '80 manual of serpentine belts, but from an '82 Jeep TSM I see than serpentine belts were available for certain (unspecified) sixes.

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Offline greymarooneightytwo

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2013, 03:41:00 PM »
Ah, well if it was that early we can't blame Chrysler!

Of course it's that early, or parts stores wouldn't be likely to have both listed for my car, D'oh!

Offline SouthernBird

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2013, 09:42:05 AM »
I have an '87 Eagle that is in need of a standard water pump - I tossed an aluminum auto zone one (and an AZ fan clutch) on there last year and i think it might have been the cause of her melt down. Does she require an original heavy cast water pump or has anyone out there put one of these easy to find, cheap aluminum ones with positive results?

Offline BenM

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2013, 10:09:51 PM »
A cheap one may or may not work. If the casting is sloppy and the impeller not pressed on right it's just junk.

The impeller needs to clear the casting by .070 to .050. You can adjust them fit with a wood block and a hammer. Too much gap, over .100, and it quickly looses pumping efficiency.

A sloppy casting can have thick or thin walls in the hose connections that will cause leaks.

Aluminum or iron doesn't matter, but an '87 should be aluminum from the factory. As long as the rotation is correct.

Hesco and Flowkooler make "high-performance" pumps.

Also, beware that the 4.0 pumps used a steel pipe screwed into the pump body instead of the usual 3/4 line barb for the heater return line. You have to get a nipple, some 1/2" line, and a reducer to adapt it if you don't have that steel line handy.
NSS#47184

1987 AMC Eagle Sedan -- 1976 Pacer Coupe -- 1968 Pontiac Tempest Custom S -- 1940 Mercury (& a 2002 Jetta Turbodiesel, 5 spd., the Wife's Daily Driver)

Offline carnuck

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Re: Just a reminder regarding water pumps...
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2013, 03:16:11 PM »
That steel line should come with the pump. If not, it's available on the "Help!" rack in most stores
FOR SALE
'87 Comanche 4.0L AW4/NP242 3.73 gears, lifted 5" on near new 33" tires $3500 obo
'82 Eagle Wagon (Brown Betty) 4.2L/727/NP229 and soon 8.25 rear axle and non-vacuum 3.08 front to match. 235/75/15 tires. It's down to minor body work (someone creamed my driver's door but I have another in good shape) almost rust free and interior work (seats are worn and carpet torn). $2000 but about to go up due to more work being done.

Pics of my other for sale stuff http://tinyurl.com/jimsclads