Author Topic: Problems with reverse in 85 Eagle with Auto trans  (Read 3090 times)

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Offline kalve

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Problems with reverse in 85 Eagle with Auto trans
« on: February 16, 2013, 07:46:56 PM »
Got a 85 Eagle wagon an had a full tune up done to it an trans fluid an filter replaced as well as trans pan gasket the trans shifts better after all this was done but you go to put it in reverse an it acts like sometimes it is not wanting to in gauge reverse real good it goes into reverse but it kinda acts like it wants to kick out of reverse right after you first put it in reverse. The car sat 8 years before i got it not started or moved.
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Offline eaglebeek

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Re: Problems with reverse in 85 Eagle with Auto trans
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2013, 10:17:24 PM »
Does your problem going into reverse occur when it's first started or does it occur all the time? I'll be interested in any responses as well...our Eagle behaves in much the same manner until everything is warmed up. :eagle:
1984 Eagle Wagon, 258, auto, 2.73 gears, daily driver
1983 Eagle Limited Wagon, new arrival from way up north
2000 Jeep Cherokee, 4.0, auto
2007 Hyundai Accent, radical downsize from minivan, wife's car and she loves it!

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Offline kalve

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Re: Problems with reverse in 85 Eagle with Auto trans
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2013, 02:06:47 AM »
it does it all the time in reverse it is not as bad since i had the trans fluid changed in it. My thing is I think reverse is bout gone or something needs adjusted on it. The guy I got the car off of had it sitting 8 years without starting or driving it any. When he got it in 93 it had 90K on it he put 90K more on it in 11 years doing a paper route. He said one time he had it hung up in a snow bank were he lived at Hot Springs Covington VA area which is were the car is from. He drove it till 04 an bought a new truck an then parked it till I bought it in Nov 2012. I think when he hit the snow bank him doing drive an reverse so much trying to get the car free he might have damaged the reverse in it. When you start it up without warmed up an put it in drive its fine but when you have in on a grade or anything were the reverse has to work harder it tries to kick out. On flat ground it does fine but you go to back it up a hill or even go over a board in reverse an it tries to kick in an out of reverse. It tried to kick in an out just getting it in an out of my mom's basement on flat ground when I had to go over 2 2 by 4's with it an give it some gas in reverse but driving it an reverse on flat ground  normal driving its fine.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 02:10:00 AM by kalve »
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Offline eaglefreek

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Re: Problems with reverse in 85 Eagle with Auto trans
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2013, 08:38:52 AM »
Sorry, I can't help you with your problem, I don't know enough about transmission internals, but a paper route is HARD on a vehicle. Not as bad as a mail route, but still harder on the drivetrain and brakes than regular driving. Good luck.
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Offline eaglebeek

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Re: Problems with reverse in 85 Eagle with Auto trans
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2013, 05:43:26 PM »
OK...some of this is from my memory. It's been a while since I tore into a 998.

To attain reverse the transmission applies the front clutch and rear band. The front clutch also applies when the transmission shifts into third gear. Do you have any problems while driving it above about 30 mph...such as slipping in high or third gear? When it does shift into third does the engine rev up before it shifts?

The rear band also applies when you manually shift the transmission into first gear. In the drive position the function of the rear band is handled by an overrunning clutch when you move out from a standing start in first gear. Therefore you're not likely to notice a problem when driving forward from a standing start if the rear band turns out to be the problem. It's my experience that the rear band seldom goes out or even needs adjustment.

The rear band is adjustable. You can get at the adjustment by draining the fluid and taking off the pan. If you're going to adjust the bands post up a message and I'll go into more detail. The clutch is not adjustable, and if that's the problem you're looking at pulling and disassembling the transmission.

There's no way to know for sure where the problem lies until you do pressure tests. However, here are a couple of thoughts:
1) You've already done the first step toward resolving the problem...changing fluid and filter. I'm assuming your fluid level is between the full and add marks. Check it while it's warmed up and with the engine running in the neutral...not park...position.
2) You can eliminate or confirm a rear band problem by driving the car forward while in the "1" position. Get it up to about 15 mph and then let off the gas. If the car simply coasts and engine speed falls to idle you have a rear band problem. If it slows down against engine compression the rear band is OK and you have either a front clutch problem or a hydraulic pressure problem.

The good news is that the 998 is a simple transmission. Anyone with basic knowledge, a bit of experience, a decent set of tools and a good technical manual can successfully repair this transmission. :eagle:
1984 Eagle Wagon, 258, auto, 2.73 gears, daily driver
1983 Eagle Limited Wagon, new arrival from way up north
2000 Jeep Cherokee, 4.0, auto
2007 Hyundai Accent, radical downsize from minivan, wife's car and she loves it!

"The society which scorns excellence in plumbing as a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because it is an exalted activity will have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy: neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water."--John W. Gardner, in "Excellence: Can We Be Equal and Excellent Too?" (1961)
 
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Offline carnuck

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Re: Problems with reverse in 85 Eagle with Auto trans
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2013, 03:55:01 AM »
It's too bad they didn't adjust the rear band while the pan was off. The clutch seal is probably hard and on it's way out. I usually get another year or so out of these trans by adding a can of STP engine oil treatment. Some trans shops even go so far as to put 1/2 a can in the pan when they rebuild the trans (some of the not so honest shops just drop the pan, adjust the bands, add a can of STP and pressure wash the trans. Voilà! Instant trans rebuild. That'll be $2,000 please!)
FOR SALE
'87 Comanche 4.0L AW4/NP242 3.73 gears, lifted 5" on near new 33" tires $3500 obo
'82 Eagle Wagon (Brown Betty) 4.2L/727/NP229 and soon 8.25 rear axle and non-vacuum 3.08 front to match. 235/75/15 tires. It's down to minor body work (someone creamed my driver's door but I have another in good shape) almost rust free and interior work (seats are worn and carpet torn). $2000 but about to go up due to more work being done.

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Offline Canoe

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Re: Problems with reverse in 85 Eagle with Auto trans
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2013, 11:14:28 AM »
Does it engage/disengage reverse, or does it stay in reverse but slips?

Did the problem first start with it reversing fine, but not up hills? Then it got worse and hills and flat was a problem?

If that's the case, then the transmission may not be going fully into reverse due to
- maladjustment of the lower-shift-lever to the shift-rod, or
- due to play in the plastic bushing at the bottom of the lower-shift-lever or
- due to play in the plastic bushing at the transmission-end of the shift-rod (which if they're really loose, might allow for it disengaging from reverse).

If it is slipping, this must be fixed very soon, else you'll wear out the front clutch and have to replace it.

http://forums.amceaglenest.com/index.php?topic=36544.msg294409#msg294409
Eaglepedia parts diagram 38.23.1 in that post
shift-rod is part #21
plastic bushings are both labeled part #19
lower-shift-lever is part #2
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 11:16:07 AM by Canoe »

Offline kalve

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Re: Problems with reverse in 85 Eagle with Auto trans
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2013, 05:46:04 AM »
on the trans it does fine in reverse on flat ground but you get it on hills or got to give it some gas to get over something as simple as a board an you can feel the trans acting up like it is trying to jump out of reverse. I had Aamco transmission check the car an they said all seals are bad an said as far as they could tell trans did fine driving it on the interstate which I have never had a problem doing. So what can I check or fix on this trans myself without taking it to a trans shop? I am looking at finding a rebuilt trans an put in it an be done with this one just because it has 181K miles on it. Also is there a overdrive trans that will bolt right in or I just have to go with the 3 speed auto trans like what is in it?
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Offline carnuck

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Re: Problems with reverse in 85 Eagle with Auto trans
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2013, 09:34:23 PM »
Either a can of STP engine treatment in the trans or Lucas trans additive. If that doesn't work, then trans time. No O/D is direct bolt in. AW4 needs wired in controls, trans crossbar and new driveshafts. 42RE is junk, but a 727 from an '84-91 Grand Wagoneer (6 or 8 cyl) is a direct bolt in. 999 from a Wrangler pre '91 (6 cyl) will too.
FOR SALE
'87 Comanche 4.0L AW4/NP242 3.73 gears, lifted 5" on near new 33" tires $3500 obo
'82 Eagle Wagon (Brown Betty) 4.2L/727/NP229 and soon 8.25 rear axle and non-vacuum 3.08 front to match. 235/75/15 tires. It's down to minor body work (someone creamed my driver's door but I have another in good shape) almost rust free and interior work (seats are worn and carpet torn). $2000 but about to go up due to more work being done.

Pics of my other for sale stuff http://tinyurl.com/jimsclads

Offline kalve

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Re: Problems with reverse in 85 Eagle with Auto trans
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2013, 04:22:35 PM »
which would be the better trans to find a 727 or 999? An I saw one online that said rebuilt 727 with cheetah reverse pattern manual valve body & has a 2800 stall converter. If I run across something like this is this a good or bad setup for a trans to be used in a AMC Eagle? Is it safe to drive the car with the trans acting up like this as long as it is on flat ground or just park it altogether?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 04:24:47 PM by kalve »
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Offline carnuck

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Re: Problems with reverse in 85 Eagle with Auto trans
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2013, 07:55:58 PM »
The 727 is stronger, but it needs to be a Jeep one (for 4x4 or it won't fit) because the bell pattern is different for anything other than '72 up AMC V8 and 6 cyl. Reverse pattern manual shift is a racing thing and so is 2800 stall. Both would entail a severe fuel consumption issue. 2200 is max I would go and only with a lockup. Mine is non-lockup with 1800 stall and with 2.72 gears and 235/75/15 tires it's a little weak off the line (all stock motor with 130,000 miles) which is why I'm going to 3.08 gears.
   For Jeep it needs to be '80 and newer FSJ (they were TH400/QT before '80)

Too bad you aren't close to Seattle. I know of a good one nearby (motor was toasted by a blown rad hose) for $150 and another south of me for a bit more with NP229.
FOR SALE
'87 Comanche 4.0L AW4/NP242 3.73 gears, lifted 5" on near new 33" tires $3500 obo
'82 Eagle Wagon (Brown Betty) 4.2L/727/NP229 and soon 8.25 rear axle and non-vacuum 3.08 front to match. 235/75/15 tires. It's down to minor body work (someone creamed my driver's door but I have another in good shape) almost rust free and interior work (seats are worn and carpet torn). $2000 but about to go up due to more work being done.

Pics of my other for sale stuff http://tinyurl.com/jimsclads

Offline Baskinator

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Re: Problems with reverse in 85 Eagle with Auto trans
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2013, 11:29:45 AM »
This is a common problem on used TF999/998/727 transmissions. One suggestion I have for you is to install a shift kit in the valve body. It costs ~$25 for the kit (Mr. Shift/Transgo on the auction site), and takes probably 4 hours to install if you take your time. You can also reuse your fluid/filter if it's still good and you don't contaminate it, but this is tough to do without a drain plug.

The kit solves multiple problems. It provides a more firm clutch engagement for better shifts and less clutch wear. To help your situation, it also provides lubrication through all gears and allows fluid to flow through the torque converter in Park. This means you can check your fluid in Park instead of Neutral, and your Reverse should engage much faster/better.

My Eagle's transmission should be shot by now. It had coolant in the fluid as well as rust particles from the old cooler lines and cooler from sitting for years. I put an external cooler in with new lines and installed this shift kit, plus flushed multiple times with new fluid (mainly because it leaked like crazy), and I've been driving it for ~5,000 miles with perfect shifts. The leaks have mostly stopped by now luckily  ::)

For now, you should be starting the car while in Neutral instead of Park. It is much easier on the transmission, and should shift into reverse faster. DO NOT put any other product into the transmission unless you are planning on rebuilding it, because it is a quick fix and there is no going back. They swell seals and will only temporarily solve the problem, while your problem is probably something completely different. Hope this helps!
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Offline eaglebeek

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Re: Problems with reverse in 85 Eagle with Auto trans
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2013, 12:32:35 PM »
Is it safe to drive the car with the trans acting up like this as long as it is on flat ground or just park it altogether?
I've been driving mine for a couple of years and several thousand miles with the transmission slow to engage reverse, especially when cold. I've had no problems other than a bit of a leak around the shift lever shaft. Even if the front clutch or rear band totally fails you can limp it home or to a safe place in 2nd gear at 35-40 mph. I realize I'm talking from my own experiences and this option may not be right for your situation.

This is a common problem on used TF999/998/727 transmissions. One suggestion I have for you is to install a shift kit in the valve body. It costs ~$25 for the kit (Mr. Shift/Transgo on the auction site), and takes probably 4 hours to install if you take your time. You can also reuse your fluid/filter if it's still good and you don't contaminate it, but this is tough to do without a drain plug.

The kit solves multiple problems. It provides a more firm clutch engagement for better shifts and less clutch wear. To help your situation, it also provides lubrication through all gears and allows fluid to flow through the torque converter in Park. This means you can check your fluid in Park instead of Neutral, and your Reverse should engage much faster/better.

My Eagle's transmission should be shot by now. It had coolant in the fluid as well as rust particles from the old cooler lines and cooler from sitting for years. I put an external cooler in with new lines and installed this shift kit, plus flushed multiple times with new fluid (mainly because it leaked like crazy), and I've been driving it for ~5,000 miles with perfect shifts. The leaks have mostly stopped by now luckily  ::)

For now, you should be starting the car while in Neutral instead of Park. It is much easier on the transmission, and should shift into reverse faster. DO NOT put any other product into the transmission unless you are planning on rebuilding it, because it is a quick fix and there is no going back. They swell seals and will only temporarily solve the problem, while your problem is probably something completely different. Hope this helps!

Bakinator, your suggestion is excellent...I should have thought about it myself.  :P The only thing that concerns me is that if the front clutch plates are worn the shift kit may not help. I would have thought a front clutch problem would show itself in 3rd gear, however, and I haven't read anything in kalve's posts about 3rd gear trouble. For $25 it's worth taking that chance imho.

I completely agree with your statement about additives.

Kalve, don't be hesitant about getting into your transmission. The Mr. Shift/Transgo kit comes with complete and illustrated instructions. You do not have to pull the transmission to install a shift kit. Anyone who is mechanically inclined, has good literature and some hand tools can work on this transmission successfully. If you get to this point  :banghead: there's plenty of know-how right here. :occasion14:  :eagle:
1984 Eagle Wagon, 258, auto, 2.73 gears, daily driver
1983 Eagle Limited Wagon, new arrival from way up north
2000 Jeep Cherokee, 4.0, auto
2007 Hyundai Accent, radical downsize from minivan, wife's car and she loves it!

"The society which scorns excellence in plumbing as a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because it is an exalted activity will have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy: neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water."--John W. Gardner, in "Excellence: Can We Be Equal and Excellent Too?" (1961)
 
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Offline Canoe

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Re: Problems with reverse in 85 Eagle with Auto trans
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2013, 02:36:30 PM »
I would have thought a front clutch problem would show itself in 3rd gear, however, and I haven't read anything in kalve's posts about 3rd gear trouble.
When my front clutch wore out (due to the selector mis-adjustment) the slipping first appeared in Reverse under load, then any Reverse, then worse in Reverse, then finally started slipping in 3rd with heavy acceleration, then getting even worse in Reverse and 3rd, and finally barely any force in Reverse and always slipping in 3rd.

 

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